Mikhail Deliagin, internationally renown economist and director of the Globalization Institute (Institute of Globalization Problems) speaks about Bronze Soldier, Russian speakers in the Baltics and official policies.

Russian and Estonian Bureaucrats Conduct Similar Policy

An interview with Mikhail Deliagin
(Translator’s note: somewhat pessimistic interview that echoes the Fontanka.ru piece on Putin and Estonian ports)

Translated and published in English — May 15, 2007 under fair use terms.

Published in Russian — May 05. 2007
Original: http://www.rosbalt.ru/2007/05/05/295325.html

Mikhail Deliagin (Michail, Michael, Delyagin, Deljagin), internationally-renown Russian economist and the director of the Globalization Institute (Institute of Globalization Problems) speaks on destruction of the Bronze Soldier, the plight of Russian speakers’ in the Baltics and on Russian authorities’ policies in general
________________________________________


-Mikhail Gennadievich, a lot has been said about current events in Estonia. What is your opinion about them? What are your personal feelings?

-Actually, it’s a pain. Incredible sorrow. You see, I like Estonia a lot. I visited Estonia several times before the war… sorry, before the destruction of the Union, and crisscrossed almost entire Estonia. I well remember as in small towns like Rakvere or Viljandi, Estonians understood that these strange characters are really trying to find the castle, and not the store, and so like 10 or 15 people would gather around us and try to explain how to get to the castle. They spoke Russian poorly and the road to it, as a rule, was never direct. In the last years I am seeing how Estonia is being transformed from the state of triumphant apartheid to the outright fascist state.

You know, for example, how this tale of monuments began? In villages, in small towns of Estonia local populace spontaneously began erecting monuments to their countrymen, including those folks who served in the SS and who exterminated Jews under Hitlerites’ command. The leadership of Estonia was not yet in the European Union, but the membership was their goal, and they were still shy. Monuments were been removed when condemned as illegally erected, locals were indignant and protested, every time some sort of lawsuit was filed, and at the end everyone got tired of it and passed a special law. The law circulated through bureaucratic strata, but in the meantime Estonia entered the EU, and the law was then promptly turned upside down.

-A great deal less is being said about plight of Russians in Estonia than in Latvia? Perhaps Russians’ are just better off in Estonia than in Latvia?

- No, there are just fewer Russians in Estonia: if Letts (Latvians) represented slightly more than 40% of Latvia’s population before the Union’s dissolution, and so fought for their power as dominant ethnic group while in actuality they were a minority, in Estonia Estonians represented about 60% of the population. They did not have to oppress others in order to gain power because they would have obtained it through democratic means as well. But, first, the nationalist intelligentsia in Estonia wanted it all, wanted all the power in its totality, and wasn’t willing to share it with anyone, and secondly the nature of oppression in Estonia is not rooted in some political safety objective but is really oppession for the sake of oppression, persecution for sport. A peasant who is rabid, raving mad because of past offenses or injustices, mostly totally fabricated, who suddenly gained power, whose worldview horizon is that of the fence surrounding its land plot, — is the true face of fascism. And they could have begun persecuting absolutely anyone — the victims are Russians but they could be Jews or Basques or whatever.

It is telling that Estonian leadership undertook far fewer efforts to integrate Russians and other non-Estonians, fewer even that the Latvian did. You see Latvians had to assimilate at least a part of population in order to become the majority, while Estonians had no such goal, and from the very beginning they separated «others» from «their» own society.

Sometimes it smacks of a joke, in the so-called phony «occupation museum»: in the center of Tallinn, which is by the way not that far from the Monument to the Warrior-Liberator, there are guide signs but the signs are only in Estonian and English. Russian signs, in a contrast to «occupation museum» in Riga, are conspicuously absent; Estonian leadership did not even made an attempt to convince those whom it considers «occupiers» of anything, not even of their own guilt, as it only wanted to be separate from «them». Estonia today — is the state of victorious and jubilant xenophobia. And if our bureaucrats want to start fighting against xenophobes and xenophobia, and not against patriots and patriotism, they really have to begin a real fight against Estonia, and not against own nation.

The fault why we spoke less about the situation Russians find themselves in Estonia than in Latvia — is entirely our own. And not anyone else. And we shouldn’t seek cover behind the back of our corrupted bureaucracy. What can be done? — we are lazy and not curious, (as the Russian saying has it) — man won’t even make a sign of the cross unless there’s thunder.

- So, how would you describe the situation with Russian speakers?

- European researchers told me about it — and these are calm and unbiased people. Those Russians who are still left in Estonia are either workers or technical personnel. White color folks have either left for good or became assimilated. Russians in particular and non-Estonians in general are being actively discriminated against because of their language and their ethnic origin, especially in matters concerning employment. Active apartheid (separation through rejection) as practiced by the Estonians created a situation where Russians were forced to concentrate in the Northeast where a vast Russian ghetto was formed. Even according to official figures, unemployment level in the Northeast is about 20% against 10% in the rest of Estonia. However Estonian statistics only count citizens, the rest are not considered human. That makes unemployment figures among «non-citizens» considerably higher, the actual unemployment level may approach even 50% and in some localities, especially among the young people, this figure can even be higher. This is an area of genuine social disaster, something that is absolutely unique for the European Union, and I must add on my own, comparable to certain regions in Russia.

I must say that European researchers were absolutely shocked when they tried to compare the situation and social wellbeing of Estonian and Russian students in institutions of higher learning. You see, they had to express it within «encountering unforeseen circumstances» phrase because there are almost no Russian students in Estonian universities and colleges. Today young Russians have to fight for the right to be admitted to a technical school and there are no places for them there. But for Russian youth, getting some technical skill is now almost the only way to make it in Estonia.

So the policy of extermination of Russians as a people, exterminating a nation through, among other things, wholesale denial of educational opportunities and «moronization,» once formulated if memory doesn’t fail me, by the Hitler adherents, and that is also being carried out unconsciously by Russian bureaucracy, so Estonian authorities are conducting this policy with unprecedented effectiveness and thoroughness. That’s the root of the social protest which has been released in the streets of Tallinn.

- But wait what do Russian bureaucrats have to do with it?

-They are conducting a policy similar to what their Estonian counterparts are doing, of course in a milder form, probably because they don’t feel support of NATO bayonets and EU might behind them. There are even coincidences — in the days of scandal when the monument to the Warrior-Liberator was desecrated in Tallinn, a similar grave of wartime pilots, war heroes, was desecrated in a similar manner in Khimki, near Moscow. No one was killed among those who protested but militia assailed the group of youth who protested this even aboard the suburban train, some were taken to the militia station, were severely beaten, so half of them ended up in hospital instead of court. Even a handicapped girl of 15 was savagely beaten.

It is probable, that the ruling bureaucracy believes it has a right to do whatever it pleases. If it wants it will stage OMON’s (special riot police) safaris in the centers of largest cities and then get the organizers demonstratively promoted to a higher rank, if it wants it will desecrate war graves of the fallen under accompaniment of own gung-ho propaganda, and anyone who would dare to disagree with it will be branded «extremist», or in practice made an outlaw. Actually it considers the entire Russia «extremist» with the only exception of security apparatus staff and members of sham «parties of power». Remarkably, all Estonian newspapers reported Khimki war grave desecration. In reality, by expressing support to local authorities’ lawlessness, the corrupt Russian bureaucracy has given the perfect excuse to the Estonian state’s action: you see — they all do it. They are right, may be all human scum do this sort of thing.

Residents of Khimki even suggested to rename their city into Estonian-sounding Hiimkii, at least while the current mayor, the true member of United Russia, Mr. Strelchenko is in charge. He is a celebrity and is effective in the reformers sense of the word. It is not a coincidence that Russia-wide protest against conversion of benefits to cash payments began in Khimki when desperate retirees blocked Leningrad highway.

But let’s get back to Estonia, I have no idea why people talk only about Russia in this context. The Estonian authorities committed an outrage against memory of all those who freed Estonia from Nazism, regardless of their ethnicity or in what USSR republic they were born. They committed an outrage against Estonians. And Kazakh youths, when they’ve learned about it, they had a demonstration and sent a letter to the government of Estonia offering to buy the monument and re-erect it in Alma Ata.

- And so how did the government of Estonia respond to the Kazakh youth?

-As far as I know it didn’t. I think the letter was written in Russian and English and Estonian leadership, unless it is talking to its masters from the EU or the USA, speaks Estonian only. So probably they made an appearance that they did not understand anything. Or that they did not get anything.

An event that is very characteristic (of Estonia) took place right before the destruction of the Monument to the Warrior-Liberator. To make a report to the European Union they staged a round table between Estonian politicians and representatives of Russian WWII veteran organizations. Old people were absolutely happy; they came from far away, some from other cities and towns, although it was very difficult for them. So here we’ve got this round table — Estonian officials knowing perfectly well that these old people who came do not speak Estonia conducted the entire thing in Estonian, without any translation. That’s how Estonian bureaucrats saved themselves from any discussion but could file an upbeat report with the European Union. So filing upbeat reports with the EU is the only task of the (Estonian) presidential council on minority relations. It is an empty formality and not once a request by representatives of Russian community in Estonia was treated favorably by this council. Not even in error.

Actually it’s quite scary to see what «democratic» leadership of Estonia is doing with its own country and its own populace. We saw this in Georgia, Azerbaijan and in Moldavia, over there real fascists, Nazis in democratic disguise gained power. But then they lost power because they couldn’t handle it but in Estonia this situation is apparently kept that way under powerful influence of the European Union.

- And what is the West’s reaction to what is going on in Estonia in general and to recent suppression of protests there?

- The European Union’s approach as was made known is such — «we’ll do whatever we can and we won’t do what we cannot»- obviously with this sort of approach no bureaucrat would do anything; and the insolent chatter about common European values is not even worth listening to. This is for «domestic consumption.»

As far as protests go, the West’s reaction was disgusting. The overall tone — hoodlums staged riots, and they got what they deserved. In the process a human being was killed, not a hoodlum, yeah but he was just a Russian. This is not just governmental position, this is the dominant view expressed in the media, and this is how Western societies view it. 

- The so called double standards?

-I wouldn’t use this term. You see, we are talking about Russians here, and we are not regarded as humans. We are seen as a biomass that has natural resources, stuff the West and others acutely need and so we are to be subjected, as our own liberals put it, to a «reduction». And no, there are no double standards.

You would surely agree that this would be ridiculous if Indians in America or Jews in Nazi Germany protested… double standards. The policy did not change a bit, the West just got smarter, they don’t pay for scalps like Americans did and do not pass obviously racist laws like the Nazis did. In fact they are quite content with having our bureaucracy in charge, and the so-called liberal social and economic policies with which it is destroying Russia. Even things like WTO and NATO are just auxiliary tools employed in conduct of the required policy. And so if Russians are to be subjected to «reduction» in Russia proper, then one can’t honestly expect anyone, either the West or the Russian bureaucracy to defend them in… Estonia.

- And what about Russian policy?

- What policy? Our diplomacy — in the best case scenario here, is equivalent of a funeral agency. If someone considers himself a friend of Russia, he either has to learn to tell our bureaucracy to go and perform a sexual intercourse on its own, and be immediately branded «enemy of Russia» or get himself a coffin, because our bureaucracy would bury anyone.

When rights of Russian speakers are at stake, take a notice, bureaucrats and official propagandist are not defending Russians where they’ve got no rights and are mercilessly oppressed, but where the situation is not so bleak and where they actually may have some rights. I’ve never heard our bureaucrats talk about defending Russians in Turkmenia or Tadjikistan — they only talk about Baltics. And mind you — they only talk.

Appropriately, this entire subject was farmed out to rabble rousers. Some of them — are good people. For example, I like how Zatulin, the United Russia member, makes toasts. But I am certainly uncertain how folks like that can improve situation anywhere, including Russia of course.

- Do I understand it correctly, that Russians of Estonia represent an enormous potential for the compatriot resettlement program?

- No, I think you understand it incorrectly. They spend their entire lives there, and some have lived there for generations. They do not want to throw everything away and get uprooted; — this is their country, their Motherland. As one of them told them -«I've lived my entire life here and never occupied anyone».

Also you should understand that in their majority these people lack higher education the worldview that comes with it and in their majority, at best, are blue color workers, busy with making a living. They have no time to waste on abstractions like resettlement or whatever. Of course, well-organized propaganda, for example like the one Israel has been engaged in, could possibly let them see this as some new opportunity, but do you honestly think our propaganda is capable of convincing free people of anything? Besides our propaganda does not attract anyone but tries to scare, and you won’t attract anyone with threats.

Finally, Estonian Russians, on one hand well realize that no one in Russia is going to help them, that promises made by the ruling Russian bureaucracy is in part conscious fraud, in part fraud that is perpetrated unconsciously, and on the other hand they see the disastrous state Russia finds itself in despite obscene enrichment of the bureaucracy and big business interests.

But they live in admittedly bad and hostile, but still a European country. And the madness of corrupt Russian bureaucracy is unlikely to attract any substantial number of them.

-So what should Russia do? 

-Well, if new leadership emerges in Russia that would also feel responsibility to the nation and not only to its own pocketbook, then it will have, it must, demonstratively and brutally punish Estonian leadership and those who support it. 

There are three major obstacles to be considered. First, to a large extent beggarly Pskov region survives through trade with Estonia. So an embargo on Estonia would hurt Pskov region and it will require aid additional to what it is already receiving from the budget. Because market relations with Estonia are largely informal, the aid must be greater than the one that can be calculated with official statistics.

Secondly, Russian and generally non-Estonian population, herded in the Northeast of Estonia, is absolutely defenseless vis-à-vis Estonian authorities and require thorough support, which must include legal assistance. Economic embargo and sanctions, even if we try to target them selectively, will obviously hurt those people as well. So we would need to provide them with compensatory aid. We cannot yet break off diplomatic relations because our compatriots are de facto hostages. But a sensible move would be to lower the status of diplomatic relations to that of just consulate which would be based not in Tallinn, but in Narva, Kohtla-Jarve, or Sillamae, so the consulate would also act as the aid center, tasked also with providing direct financial aid, on the spot. Besides some help in the regional development, this move would have an educational value as our diplomats and reletively propserous Tallinn intelligentsia would benefit from seeing with their own eyes to what state were Russians and «non-Estonians» reduced in Estonia.

- You are so persistent in avoiding the term Russian speakers?

- I do because I dislike the term. This is like a dog name, not a proper description of one’s nation. You see, Shamil Basaev was a Russian speaker, Madeleine Albright is a Russian speaker, as well as many of our present and past politicians are Russian speakers. But non-Estonians in Estonia may consider themselves Russians, Ukrainians, White Russians, Tatarts, whatever … the Estonian bureaucracy did not draw lines defining separating ethnic groups, but it drew the line separating ethnic Estonians from the rest.

- So what is third obstacle to be considered in punitive measures against Estonia?

- The business in Estonia is predominantly Russian. Russians in Estonia and Latvia occupy the same positions Jews once had — the politics are off limits to them, so is official science and the culture, so the only way they can advance socially is through business. Total embargo would hurt them severely, so we have to find some way to help perhaps even through opening new business opportunities for them. This is a complicated task but the one we can surely solve. For example we can make lists of Estonian companies which are owned by non-ethnic Estonians, which have business interests in Russia and would be hurt if sanctions are imposed, and then offer them compensatory help in arranging alternative business opportunities inside Russia.

- Do you believe that the Russian State would defend the Bronze Soldier?

- The State in the sense of service to the Nation and not to the pockets of bureaucrats employed by it., — well, today, in that sense the Russian State does not exist. To hope that the ruling clique will defend somebody else’s elderly and youth while it is destroying lives of their own elderly and is beating up own youth and making them into morons is vain indeed. Besides as I understand, the business our representatives of bureaucracy are doing with Estonians is just fantastic, and they won’t risk it over trivia like monuments or bones.

Interview by Igor Shatrov.